MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Senator Manchin, thank you for making time for us.
SEN. MANCHIN: Margaret, it’s always good to be with you. You know that, and I enjoy it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you’re always plain spoken, and there’s a lot to get to with you. I have to start on this moment of time we are in. There’s such uncertainty here on Capitol Hill about whether Congress can come to this new agreement just to keep the lights on and the government funded. After Jan- after- Excuse me, let me start again. There’s concern that the government may not come to an agreement to keep the lights on after December 20. This is after Elon Musk and President Elect Trump came out against a bipartisan deal at this 11th hour. Do you think the government’s going to shut down?
SEN. MANCHIN: No, I don’t. I don’t think anybody- I think anyone’s been here from 2013 remembers- goes back, when it was shut down, all the harm it’s done to so many good people, not their fault at all. Innocent people in America, getting harmed because of dysfunction here in Washington. I think what you’ll see, Margaret, is, if they’re having a hard time getting their legs under them right now, President Trump is out there, but also he wants to hit the ground running. So he’s looking, don’t put me behind- behind the eight ball, if you will. So they’re watching everything very closely. Unfortunately, what you’re going to see is a bunch of CRs, probably, you know, right now—
MARGARET BRENNAN: Continuing resolutions.
SEN. MANCHIN: Continuing resolution, was going to go, okay. That means we’re going to continue what we’ve been doing, and nothing new, nothing different. And that’s a very, very poor way of running a government, a very expensive way of running a government, because you should be making some adjustments to make things smoother and better and- and things of that sort. Especially the military. It’s very difficult in the military. But they were going to go to March. They wanted to wait. That’s what Mike- Mike Johnson, the Speaker, wanted to wait until, I think, after his January 3 election for Speaker, because he’s on the thin margin here, and they’re just- they’re just basically, I mean, just stone cold, they just can’t do anything. And that one vote vacate, he’s always threatened by just one Republican and say, well, if you don’t do what I want, I’m going to go ahead and- and ask for a vacation- a vacate.
MARGARET BRENNAN: To oust the speaker.
SEN. MANCHIN: To oust the speaker, and he can be threatened with that, and that just shuts everything down. So you only have a two vote threshold over there. I think 20- 220, is what they have, 218. But what gets me- it blows my mind. They won’t even think about- I know there’d be moderate centrist Democrats, 10, 15, 20 that would have no problem voting for Mike Johnson to help him, but they’re saying, oh no, no, the Democrats will extract too much. Well, if you have 200 Republicans and 10 or 15, or 20 Democrats, I think they’ll be more than reasonable just being able to participate, because over there, majority rules.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it seems, though, the direction is coming not from the elected members, but from the outside. Elon Musk, the world’s richest man, was the one who came out against this short term funding deal, and then the President Elect also said, he’s- that he’s not on board. He’s not even in office yet.
SEN. MANCHIN: I think what they looked at as they started getting into the bill, what’s- the agreement was made on a continuing resolution, but—
(CROSSTALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: This 1500 page bill that had other—
SEN. MANCHIN: Yeah, [cross talk] that was agreed upon. There was- that went through all the spending. And you know, Elon’s coming in as the new DOGE czar and- and looking at that. So wait a minute, why are you doing that, when it’s behind the eight ball before we start? They’re- they’re looking at all these things here. What they don’t—
MARGARET BRENNAN: You think these are regional- these are reasonable objections?
SEN. MANCHIN: No. I can understand where they’re coming from. Did I say they’re reasonable? No. This Congress, 118th Congress. First of all, Mike Johnson and the Republican leadership in the House has to come to grip that’s the worst performing Congress in the history of our country. That means lack of production. And I say that because most of the time there’s been about 500 bills that have been passed, and every two year, it’s 117th Congress, one of the most productive. 118th was not, they become in charge again. But because of that thing that you went through with Kevin McCarthy, how all that unfolded and what it left them with, they have been just tied in knots and can’t get anything through. And they- they will not reach out and work for- with Democrats to continue to have a majority with some bipartisanship. If they can’t get over that hump, and if Democrats can’t get over that hump, that they’ve got to work with Republicans, when they’re in charge.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But Democrats did come to a bipartisan agreement on this short term spending deal, and then the President Elect said, no deal.
SEN. MANCHIN: Right, right. So—
MARGARET BRENNAN: So Democrats were working with Republicans on that.
SEN. MANCHIN: Yes, oh no, this last deal that was made here. Mike Johnson shouldn’t have done an extension to March, okay, with the CR. We should have finished out. The Senate had all appropriation- 12 appropriation bills done, working with Patty Murray and Susan Collins. Those are two wonderful senators that really worked hard and did their job. And then, boom, nothing happens. And Schumer, for whatever reason, didn’t put them on the floor. Should have, we should have had our package altogether. That’s all doable. But I would have thought they would have finished out this year, the 118th Congress, and President Trump comes in and starts his new term on the 20th of January. That’ll be the 119th Congress. But they’re looking at things, they don’t want to be strapped with certain things. And they- they- they have a lot of input, let’s put it that way, an awful lot of influence.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you- you are an independent and you are independent minded.
SEN. MANCHIN: Always have.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you will object at times to—
SEN. MANCHIN: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: —to what the party direction is. Will you support whatever it is that Senate leadership says Democrats should be on board with, if it’s to keep the lights on?
SEN. MANCHIN: Let me make sure you understand. I will never vote to shut down the government. There’s no reason. There’s- you have no excuse in the world just because it’s not the right thing, not perfect enough.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But doesn’t that mean that the Senate will just have to swallow whatever it is the House sends up here?
SEN. MANCHIN: Pretty much- pretty much, you’re in a situation now, they just want to get out of here and not let the government shutdown and live to fight another day. I can see what’s coming now. So my vote, or anybody’s vote, right now, I think they’re going to come to an agreement. They’ll swallow hard, say, let’s go home for Christmas. That’s what’s going to happen.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So whatever it is that gets sent here by the House—
SEN. MANCHIN: Pretty much, whatever it is right now, no matter what they have to do to skinny it down, they’re not going to fight. There’s not much fight left. Okay? The die has been cast. The election of November pretty much set the die where it’s going. So whether you do it now and fight to the death now, it’s going to be changing anyway when President Trump brings his new administration in. So they’re just trying- President Trump and him are just trying to wield their power right now, and they have that influence with the Republican delegation, if you will.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So the President Elect has now publicly called for the debt ceiling to be dealt with. Not clear if he wants it—
SEN. MANCHIN: That won’t happen.
MARGARET BRENNAN: —completely eliminated or lifted. It won’t happen? Well, he says it has to be part of this deal before he takes office January 20.
SEN. MANCHIN: I don’t see the Democrats, basically- and this is going to be from a bipartisan standpoint. You have to have bipartisanship here, okay?
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you’ll need 60 votes in the Senate to do this.
SEN. MANCHIN: That’s exactly right. And you’ve got 51 Democrats right now. So if you had all 49 Republicans, you’ll need 11 Democrats to raise that debt ceiling. I just don’t see getting the votes to do that. My reason for saying that is that’s going to have to be, the Republicans do it when they take over with- with the trifecta, if you will. They’re saying is, well, this debt we’re getting from- from everybody that you’ve given us to us, and why won’t you raise it now so we can go ahead and just do our work? Well, if you’re going to do all the thing with DOGE, and you’re going to be in charge of all of the rearrangement of government, and trying to look at the waste, fraud and abuse in government, then you shouldn’t, maybe have to raise that right now, you know. So- but if you do, you have to justify why you’re doing it. I would think that would be their thought process. I’m not sure what they’re going to end up with. But I don’t see an appetite, and I have not heard an appetite of that being thrown in. Yesterday was the first time we heard about that, and that being thrown in right now to the mix, it’s either this or nothing. I don’t know how they’re going to get over that one.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think the President Elect understands the political realities that you are talking about, that there aren’t the votes?
SEN. MANCHIN: I think he understands- he understands it an awful lot better now than he did in 2016 when he won the first time. So now he’s had- he’s got- got some experience under him. He understands the process and- but he understands, also, the power that he’s wielding right now, the influence he has with the Republican congregation or delegation, if you will. On the House and the Senate. The Senate has always been more dependent- independent. Senators are independent to a certain extent. The six year term makes you a little bit more independent, so you have that to deal with. But on the house, it’s every two years, the whims and wishes of the person that’s setting and if they’re popular at the White House, makes it almost impossible for them to- to fight back hard, or sit down and work out a really tough agreement that the President wouldn’t be on board for.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you have been pushing to make it easier or less burdensome for energy companies to be able to drill, this permitting reform that you’ve been pushing.
SEN. MANCHIN: Well, all types of energy. What I- what we did, Margaret, we did- we did a permitting- we were working on a permitting bill, the John Barrosso, Republican, and I worked together for over a year and a half trying to work through the nuances of trying to say, okay, you have to produce energy that this country needs to operate on our economy, and also be able to defend ourself with our military. That comes from fossil fuels. Renewables is a direction that there’s- we’d like to be able to go with technology that will lets- they give us the energy with less carbon emissions. So we looked at everything, and only thing that we said, we came to this permitting bill, how can we produce the energy we need today and continue to invest and not waste money, but invest in technology we- for the energy we want for tomorrow? That’s what the bill did. And with that, we had, I mean, a really great bill that came out of our committee, 15 to 4, never happened before. So you would think that it would be a slam dunk. Here we have something.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But it didn’t make it into that short term (INAUDIBLE).
SEN. MANCHIN: And you would think that President Trump, I was hoping, and I tried everything I could to talk to him and make sure they understood: this bill will allow you to do what you want to do, produce the energy that this country needs. We’re producing more energy than anybody in the world. People don’t realize that. And you never heard—
MARGARET BRENNAN: Record levels. Record levels of output of oil and natural gas.
SEN. MANCHIN: —record levels, and you never heard- you never heard President Biden or Vice President Kamala Harris, and even when she was running for president, until a couple weeks before the election they even acknowledge it. They never did acknowledge that with the IRA, we paid down $230 billion of debt. That was part of the bill. Never talked about that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why do you think they were—
SEN. MANCHIN: They just couldn’t, because it wasn’t where they were. They were forced. I wrote the bill, energy portion, and it forced them to have a balanced energy position, and- and then they were just going balls to the wall, to the- with the EVs and everything else. And I told them it was completely wrong. They were way ahead of their skis. We were trying to bring the manufacturing and also the production and- and supply chain with critical minerals back to the United States, or with our free trade agreement countries, there will be reliable supply chains. Right now, they cut everything in half. The rules were absolutely horrible, and I’ve been fighting them ever since. And I think maybe the President Trump can clean that up.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you don’t see this latest proposal from you, making it into some 11th hour deal to avoid a government shutdown?
SEN. MANCHIN: If the President Trump would- if President Trump would actually say to Mike Johnson, I need that permitting bill. I need that permitting bill to do what I’ve got to do. If he thinks he wants to raise this- the debt ceiling because he doesn’t want to be encumbered about how he wants to operate, I can tell you he’s going to be tied in knots wanting to do that, the drill, baby drill, or basically producing more, because you just can’t. You have to be able to have leasing permits, and you have to go through a rigmarole thing. And the court systems are so, so onerous, to the point to where it’s almost impossible. We cut all that burden out. We basically still are very concerned about the environment, but if you’re going to have a problem, tell me up front, don’t wait to six years and sue me later. We did judicial reforms, a lot of things that really accelerated us being able to meet the challenges and the energy that we need in the next five years.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you were spotted at that Army-Navy game–
SEN. MANCHIN: Yes, I was.
MARGARET BRENNAN: –-speaking to Donald Trump.
SEN. MANCHIN: I made a point to be there. I was–
MARGARET BRENNAN: You were talking to him about exactly this. Premitting reform.
SEN. MANCHIN: I did. Well, he had so much going on. I had a chance just to mention this. I hope you really think about this and- and I’m sure he had so much more- x
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we’ll watch.
SEN. MANCHIN: We’ll watch
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we will see.
SEN. MANCHIN: You never know.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Have you reached out to Mr. Trump since last weekend on this?
SEN. MANCHIN: No, I haven’t, I haven’t talked to him. They’ve got- I think they got a lot on their plate.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Indeed.
SEN. MANCHIN: This is important though. I hope- I’m going to try.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So when you were speaking to us on “Face the Nation” last January, and we were talking about what was happening and the election cycle, and you were spending time on the campaign trail, you said, ‘I love my country too much to vote for Donald Trump…I think it would be very detrimental to my country.’ He’s the president-elect. Do you think he is detrimental to America?
SEN. MANCHIN: Here’s the thing I’ve said, you know, I said basically what I had known from the four years before. January 6 was a bridge too far for me and I think everyone knows that. I had a good relationship with him, you know, when he was- when he was the president, and we worked together. I was one of the few Democrats that went over and worked with him, and we always got along great, we’re very friendly. We used to have disagreements on some things, but you can do that. I’ve said this, Margaret, I mean it all my- all my heart, when the people speak and they make their choice and the election’s over, you better pray everything you have the president will be successful. And if you’re in a position to help, you have knowledge of how the system works and can make it work, do it. Don’t worry about well, did you vote or not vote for him? Did you- did- is that in your same party that you’re in, or whatever? Forget about that. This is about our country, and I want him to succeed, and I have said this to him, I’ll do whatever I can to help in any way humanly possible.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you’ve talked about the need to return to bipartisanship and regular order. Donald Trump is promising to destroy regular order. Upend the system.
SEN. MANCHIN: I- I have–
MARGARET BRENNAN: How do you reconcile that?
SEN. MANCHIN: I have- I have total confidence and faith in my Republican Senate colleagues that are institutionalists that will not let that happen. They have the chance. They have the power. Here’s the thing. We have three branches of government. Bob Byrd used to tell me all the time, he says, Joe, he says, the president’s not my boss, he said, and the majority leader is not my boss. The people of West Virginia are my boss. That’s who I work for, and for the betterment of our country, as long as you keep that, what’s your purpose of being here? And I think there’s enough Republican senators and Democrat senators too, but Republicans have control because they’re the majority, that are not going to let the filibuster blow apart. They’re not going to let basically run amok of the reconciliation process just to do anything they want to and override the parliamentarian and play some rough games. I don’t think they will do that. And it only takes five, or it takes four, I’m sorry, it takes four Republican senators, just four, and I guarantee you, I think there’s a lot more than four.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Who are going to hold the line?
SEN. MANCHIN: That’ll- that’ll protect the institution. They’ve been here long enough. What goes around comes around, and in two years, this thing could flip. 2026, you never know. It’s- it’s the power of the people. People go to the polls however this thing comes out. So with that being said, they’re not going to put themselves in a position. I faulted my Democrat colleagues for always, as soon as they got a chance, they wanted to get rid of the filibuster, and they know I was dead set- I’d do anything I could to stop that from happening, because I thought that was the Holy Grail of keeping democracy. That, and not allowing the reconciliation to be used every day they want to for basically policy-making. That’s not what it’s for. The reconciliation process was for keeping our finances in check, and we have done a horrible job on finances in this country.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So on that point, in the first 100 days of the Trump administration, Leader John Thune has said he plans a once-in-a-generation investment in border security, but he’s going to try to do it without Democratic votes, using that reconciliation process you just talked about. So with 51 votes, not the 60. You’re saying right now, that this is- this is not how the system is supposed to work.
SEN. MANCHIN: It’s not supposed to on policy–
MARGARET BRENNAN: And yet, that is what the Republican leader is saying he’s going to do right out of the gate.
SEN. MANCHIN: Hold on Margaret, if he’s going to have to show the financial connotation, and the cost is- it’s costing and how it’s harming our country. If it’s harming it in the financial burden that we’re carrying because of all the illegals coming and he can tie that to it, then he’ll have a pathway for it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And then step two is tax reform.
SEN. MANCHIN: Tax reform definitely finds- falls–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Also through reconciliation.
SEN. MANCHIN: Yeah. Well, here I followed Chuck Schumer and Joe Biden, starting out in their 117th Congress with the ARP. I begged the president–
MARGARET BRENNAN: The American Rescue Plan.
SEN. MANCHIN: The American Rescue Plan. Not to go in reconciliation. That’s basically when you’ve given up that you can’t work with the other side. They come out of the box that way. So this is the plan that the Republicans are following now that the Democrats basically showed them the- the pathway.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But is it a strategic mistake?
SEN. MANCHIN: Oh, I think it is.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s damaging to the institution.
SEN. MANCHIN: Well, it’s damaging from the standpoint, if you don’t think that you want, you want to do it alone, I’m going to give you a chance to prove to me you won’t work with me. I’m not just going to come out the box Margaret. I know you won’t work with me, so I’m going to do this. Obviously, I’d put it- put it, and I’ve said this to President Biden, please put it in the committee of jurisdiction wherever it falls within, whether it’s Finance or whether it’s
Energy or wherever it may be, and then put the shot clock on us. Say, guys, you got- you got 60 days to make this happen, and if they shut you down, they’ll prove to you they don’t want to work with you. Then you do what you got to do, but don’t come out of the box that way.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the inflation Reduction Act, the IRA, you played a big role in crafting, that was party line. That was through reconciliation.
SEN. MANCHIN: That’s how the vote came down. But I guarantee it. We did majority of all that bill. We wrote that bill in my committee, and I guarantee I had over five years of input for Republicans. But because of reconciliation, they don’t cross over and vote. That’s just the way it was.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you feel good about that?
SEN. MANCHIN: Well, I feel, no I feel horrible about that. We had to do it in reconciliation. I felt horrible about that. But I can tell you, the United States of America has benefited from that. From the standpoint of more investments, more offshore coming back to the United States for manufacturing, we didn’t fall into a recession. We brought down inflation from 9 to 3%, we brought down gas prices from 5 to $3. We did all of that, but the supply chains were so broken because of the pandemic, the prices of everyday staple of life, food, things of that sort made this almost unbearable for people to the burden they were carrying. The thing that the IRA kept the United States economy in better shape than any place else in the world during the pandemic. That’s a fact.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The President Elect has vowed to repeal it.
SEN. MANCHIN: Well, I think there’s some things that need to be fixed. I think there is some things that need to be fixed in it because of how and I’ve said, you heard me say this many times, when you pass a piece of legislation and you write the bill, and we wrote it as tight as we possibly could, and then they start basically putting the rules to it. So okay, if you’re going to put out incentives and tax incentives, it goes to IRS. Well, if the White House says, I want this type of interpretation that makes it very very liberal interpretation. It’s not what the bill was supposed to do. And I have told them many times with President Biden and with Mr. Podesta, these are all good people I know, friendly with very much.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The energy advisor.
SEN. MANCHIN: Energy advisor, I said you people are going down a primrose path, which is horrible. We didn’t write the bill that way, in spite of themselves trying to liberalize and putting EVs out and all of the critical minerals we’re still depending on China when we’re supposed to be weaning ourselves off of China. He can fix that immediately. President Trump can come in here and change some of those rules to get back. He, and then change, change the bill. It’ll be his- it’ll be his energy bill, but–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –So reprogramming some of these funds you’d be OK with–
SEN. MANCHIN: –Reprogramming absolutely–
MARGARET BRENNAN: There are things in there tax credits for nuclear bio fuels. Do you think parts of- you think parts of this will survive?
SEN. MANCHIN: I think it almost has to. The investments are made, and most of the investments, the majority of the investments, are made in what you would consider red states, Republican states. That’s just because of what they do and how they operate, like West Virginia.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you didn’t hear much about that from the Democratic ticket during the campaign–
SEN. MANCHIN: –They couldn’t talk about it, he was talking–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –Why?
SEN. MANCHIN: I had no idea. I kept saying, Can’t you just exact- tell what the bill did? They were saying, renewable, renewable, renewable. Only thing I said, you cannot eliminate your way to a cleaner environment, Margaret. You can’t just say, I want to get rid of coal. I want to get rid of oil. I want no gas. I want nothing extracted. We’re going to do everything for renewables. We’d be a third world country. You can’t keep this economy running. Now, you can do it with innovation, technology. So I said we’re going to produce what we need. We do it cleaner and better than anywhere in the world, producing more. So the bill did exactly on energy production. You wouldn’t be number one in the world right now, 30 trillion cubic feet of gas, 4.7 billion barrels of oil. You wouldn’t do that if we hadn’t written that bill. He can take that and even go further with it. There are so many good things in that bill that he can change it. Change the name. It’ll be his. I’ll help any way I can.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So the energy secretary, Jennifer Granholm, just had a memo arguing unfettered U.S. gas exports will harm the U.S. economy.
SEN. MANCHIN: What we’re talking about unfettered, we don’t know where the base is from this standpoint, we are doing about 12 billion cubic feet a day of LNG exports. We’ve–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –Liquefied natural gas.
SEN. MANCHIN: Yeah, we’ve replaced, Margaret, an awful lot of the- this the foreign Russia fuel coming into NATO ally, our country in Europe. We replaced that because of this. But the bottom line is, I don’t know where we- the tipping point would be. We’re going to be up to about 26 billion cubic feet a day. We’re going to double where we are. 2016 we had zero. This is where- how far we come. And with that, we’ve been able to keep the gas prices fairly reasonable and low in America, there’s still two and a half $3 in MCF, million cubic feet of gas, which is extremely, very reasonable. Other countries are paying 12, 13, 14, 15 dollars for the same amount of gas. So we have been awash in gas. I have not seen the final report, and they wanted to start curbing it and say we’re going to stop LNG, remember that? A Pause.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes, the Biden administration said they were pausing for review–
SEN. MANCHIN: –So I said, oh no, that doesn’t make any sense at all. Give me the report that shows me what the reserves we have left, what the domestic demand is going to be, and if we have the reserve to help our allies.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You sound, speaking about energy policy, like a Republican.
SEN. MANCHIN: I hope I sound like an American. It makes sense. Okay? My Democrat friends are all so far off the rail. Okay, I love them all. But I say guys- but a lot of them really understand it, they just can’t speak it because the base has gone so far, and that’s I just I couldn’t take it anymore.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about what’s happening here in the Senate. Alaska Senator Lisa Murkowski, she is a Republican, but she’s also known for being pretty independent–
SEN. MANCHIN: She’s the best of the best, my dear friend.
MARGARET BRENNAN: She said that the next four years are going to be hard. The Trump administration’s approach is going to be, everybody toe the line. Everybody line up. We got you here, and if you want to survive, you better be good, or we will primary you.
SEN. MANCHIN: Thank God for ranked choice voting. Without ranked choice voting, my dear friend Lisa wouldn’t be here. Or open primaries. If the people of America want to get the best quality, the best character of a human being, they want to represent them so you can continue to enjoy this great domestic, what we call this great democracy ours, which is a representative form. We’re still an experimental stage. We’re responsible for putting the person that’s going to represent us to run this government. You’ve got to get the best person there. But if the parties shut it down, which they’ve done, which is Heather, my daughter, we’re working on Americans Together.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right
SEN. MANCHIN: And that Americans Together is basically saying-we’re trying to teach every state how you can open your primaries up, how you can look at your districts for gerrymandering, how you can get more people participating. And that’s exactly if the democrat and republican party control the primaries, they can control you up here. Because basically you have a hard time winning unless they unless the leadership of both sides, Democrat and Republican, are supporting you, putting their weight and their finances behind you. So they’re going to say, hey, Margaret, I’m sorry you just didn’t toe the line right. You didn’t vote with us when we needed you. So I’m going to find somebody else that I can control
MARGARET BRENNAN: Exactly. And she’s explicitly saying–
SEN. MANCHIN: –She’s telling you exactly the- but they’ll not get her because, you know why?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why?
SEN. MANCHIN: Too many good Alaskans that are Democrats or independents understand the quality of Lisa Murkowski
MARGARET BRENNAN: Who else is going to stand up to the president-elect when they disagree and be willing to say so out loud? Are there other senators up here who will do it?
SEN. MANCHIN: I would hope. You know, my father used to tell me, if you can say no with a tear in your eye, you’re okay. If you can do it with respect and just say, Mr. President, I’m so sorry, where I come from that doesn’t make sense. I can’t explain it back home. I know it’s something, could I work with you and maybe- people have to try a different approach. I mean, I had, I had no problem talking to President Trump when he was, you know, I would just say, I’m not sure that’s going to work, and maybe we could try something else. I never just say, Oh, you’re wrong. You don’t go, you can’t start out a conversation that is going to end productive if I tell you how bad you are on the front end. If I tell you, that’s a pretty good idea, Margaret, could we work on it together, make it a little better? I’m telling you, I can’t do what you want me to do. I’ll work with you, make it better. You’re going to say, Oh no, Joe, it’s got to be the way it is. If you’re telling me that you’re making a political statement.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you also serve on armed services. You’ve said the Afghanistan withdrawal was one of the major failures–
SEN. MANCHIN: –Horrible–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –of the Biden administration. And on the campaign trail, Donald Trump said he wants the resignation of every single military officer who touched the Afghanistan disaster on his desk by noon on Inauguration Day. Presidents make policy, officers execute it. Do you think there should be retribution, or whatever holding to account means?
SEN. MANCHIN: I pray to God he doesn’t do that. I hope that was just campaign rhetoric. You can’t do that. You can’t do that, Margaret, basically–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –He says he’s going to at noon.
SEN. MANCHIN: Well, let’s just pray to God he doesn’t. You know, things change around here pretty quickly. And the thing I’m saying is this, he’s going to be the commander in chief. He’s going to give orders, and I guarantee the military will take the orders and take them very well. I am so impressed. And just this amazes me, the military might that we have, but also it’s ingrained in them, especially if you ever go through the military academies and people come up through ROTC, and all the people that are really in tune with who we are and the purpose of serving. They’re not going to go off it. They do not try to make policy decisions. They will not jump into it. But they’re thinking, there are some, well, there’s going to be some, you know, that sometimes speak out that maybe shouldn’t, but they did, and they’ve targeted and this and that, and we’ve had a few generals that have left the ranks because of those reasons. But I can tell you, I can assure you, the military that we have, have followed the private course of what we’ve dictated our geopolitical course that we’re taking, and they’ve been very good at doing that. The mistakes have been made, even though they see those mistakes. So the people that basically were following orders of the extraction in Afghanistan- first of all, I couldn’t believe that we’d just up and leave. I thought we would at least keep Bagram Air Force Base and have that established base, which is an unbelievable value to us, and keeping a little bit of peace in that part of the world. Working with- you can work with the Taliban, whoever you want to over there, but the bottom line, that was a show of force that we had. We could work and help people and do a lot of good from there. We just didn’t have to tell them how to live their life and what they should be doing. That’s the problem. But when they get out the way they did, that left a mark on us, and it help- it hurt. It reverberated around the world. And the geopolitical unrest that we were kind of on the tinder belt box anyway, it just kind of says, oh, look what’s going on. Let’s go.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have spoken about your friendship with Joe Biden for many, many years. That was tested during this presidency.
SEN. MANCHIN: Yeah.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When was the last time you spoke with him?
SEN. MANCHIN: It was before the campaign. It was before the campaign, before he made his decision, before the- probably before, I’m just trying to think, probably before the debate, probably–
MARGARET BRENNAN: before June.
SEN. MANCHIN: His debate, probably it’s been a while.
MARGARET BRENNAN: A consequential debate at the end–
SEN. MANCHIN: Yeah, and I mean, I just, I still think, think he’s a very good person. I still like him and Jill and their family just tough. This is a tough situation, okay, but the bottom line is I still, when I spoke, I would still speak to him with respect, and I would do it in a way that I thought would be helpful. I think to be against something means, okay, what do you have better. If I was against what he was doing in energy, I thought I had something better that could help him with. If I was with something of public policy or a policy that they have taken, I’d have to have a better idea. And where I came from had to be more common sense. I had to go home and explain it. And I only think I’ve told everybody up here. If you want to know, I can tell you exactly. I cannot go home and explain this. And I think you know what that means. I’m not voting for it. I’m telling you up front, so don’t be don’t be all caught off guard and get excited when you see me get on the floor and vote for something. Oh, Manchin, killed it. No, no. You killed it because you brought it up. You knew you didn’t have the votes before you brought it up, but you want to make a show, and you want me to be the bad guy. I know what you’re doing, and I’ve been doing that for far too long, and they should never bring some of the people what they brought for confirmation, which I said, You do not have my vote. Without my vote, you can’t pass them.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So the Wall Street Journal has a report about how the White House insulated Joe Biden during his presidency, largely shielding him from the press and not giving him access to lawmakers. They cite you in the article as spending time one on one with President Biden, but in it, you’re cited as noticing he lacks stamina and relied on his staff to drive the agenda more than other presidents you had worked with. Do you think that they were concealing the president’s decline?
SEN. MANCHIN: I don’t know how they got that conclusion. I never had a problem sitting and talking with him, and in fact- and the matter of fact, when we start negotiating, he knew that I was against the American rescue plan the way it was coming out, going to reconciliation. And he wanted to talk to me and everything. And when I walked in after he heard that I might be opposing that he’s- I said something at 10 o’clock in the morning, by two o’clock, I’m sitting in the Oval Office. And when I came in, hey Jojo, how you doing? We got to talk. So if he says, Hey Jojo, I know things are pretty good. If he’s a Joe, come in here. I want to talk to you. I know it’s going to be a little bit more- little bit more tense. Depends how he approaches that. Okay, so with that I walked in, you made everybody leave the room, everybody just me and him, and that’s when I said, Mr. President, I’m begging you not to do this. You’re coming out assuming that Republicans won’t work with you, and you were the only one on the stage saying you knew how to make things happen, because you were the deal maker. I know that. I watched it. Now, all of a sudden, you’re coming out of the chute, throwing a nuclear bomb. I said, Please don’t I said, make them prove they don’t work with- with you first. But I said, Let’s gotta go. Gotta go. Gotta go. I said, Well, okay, and I’ve always been differential to a president, same as I’m differential to any president that wants to put their staff together. They have someone as long as they’re qualified and don’t have any nefarious problems that we will find out in a deep dive. That’s why you should have FBI reviews. No matter who they are. You need to know. Senators need to know that. I guarantee you they don’t want to go into this naked. Democrats and Republicans don’t want to.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’re saying it’s a mistake for the Trump administration to bypass the FBI background checks.
SEN. MANCHIN: I can guarantee you one thing, the senators will get their own FBI report. They’re not going to let it go. They’re not going to make a decision.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All of them on Armed Services, not just leadership?
SEN. MANCHIN: I would think that everyone- I would think that everyone understands how critical that advise and consent is. That is what you’ve got, and that’s a purpose and a reason for that. But anyway–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Who do you have in mind when you say that? Who’s background check do you think needs to be reviewed? Who are you concerned about?
SEN. MANCHIN: No, I mean, you know Tulsi. I know Tulsi Gabbard. I like Tulsi as a person. I just don’t know all the other things have happened over the years. You follow me? But I knew when she was first here in Congress, and I came here as a senator and- and we had, you know, because she was moderate, very modern, centrist, we had a lot in common back then, when we could talk about different things.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And Pete Hegseth.
SEN. MANCHIN: Pete, I don’t know well. I don’t know Pete that well. And you want to make sure he has the qualifications, and if the President thinks he does, I would, you know, I don’t have a bit of problem. Once the presidents pick their team, I’ll tell you the reason why. That’s will and pleasure. They come and go with the President. They’re not hanging over to another president who has to inherit these people. So you always when I was governor, I used to go tell the state senator you might not know the people I’m bringing on board. Do your- do your do your investigation. If you find nothing that they’ve not done, they’re a good character, might not be somebody you know or you like, but they have the qualifications. I have faith in them. Give me a chance to work with him, if not throw us both out. That’s how I look at it. So anytime a president asked me something, I said, so I finally just had to tell President Biden, I said, Are you asking me as your friend and as my president to get on the American rescue plan? And he said, Yes. I’ll do it one time. That was it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Before I let you go. How are you going to influence politics from outside the Senate? And do you regret not running for president yourself?
SEN. MANCHIN: I would have loved to have had a platform that I could speak, which I think is pretty centrist common sense, where most people in America are, and maybe I could have done this. Could I have won or not? Who knows? Could I put a team together that I could show that could responsibly govern, taking consideration that you have to be fiscally responsible and you can be socially compassionate, but you can run it- run your household, and you can run your country with compassion, but also being responsible. And right now I’m saying we’re throwing caution to the wind on both of those. So with that, I could have brought that to a level in a discussion that maybe bring the extremes back. You know, the extremes have never run the parties, but the extremes are running the parties now and then they’re closing and shutting everything down, open the process up. I had to fight when I was secretary of state of West Virginia to have open primaries. I wanted to basically- independents couldn’t vote in a Democratic primary in West Virginia when I became Secretary of State, that’s because we already had all the Democrats at 75% Democrat state. They said, why do we have to do anything? We don’t need those people. I said, You mean you’re going to sit back and allow the Republicans open the primary up, to allow an independent come in, says, I’d like to vote, and they’re going to say, well, you don’t even vote for the Republicans because the Democrats won’t allow you. I finally got to change that. But you have to open this process up. If you want a representative form of democracy to work in this experiment of 240 years, then let’s do it the right way and let people participate and have some say, and have a better quality of candidate or more selection, if you will.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Manchin,
SEN. MANCHIN: There’s a lot more. Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There’s a lot more. There’s more we can talk about.
SEN. MANCHIN: But I’m going to be involved. The boat’s staying here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I heard that.
SEN. MANCHIN: The boat’s gonna stay.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What are you going to use the boat for?
SEN. MANCHIN: Well, I got on the boat. Everybody wants a boat, so yeah, and we’re all gonna come down. I promise you that we’ll do that. But here’s what. Last night, we had a big dinner with D’s and R’s, 5 D’s and five R’s. And I said, guys, the only thing I can tell you is I’m leaving. I’m leaving, but I’m not going that far away, because I want you all to have a place. And we did so many good things in that boat. We got so many discussions. We got through so many problems. And I said, you know, you get four D’s, four R’s whatever. Only thing I’m going to tell you, the boat will be available to you, but you’ve got to bring a person from the other party when you come. So if you want to bring five of your D’s down, or you’ll be five R’s, then bring five D’s, and we’ll take care of the rest. I’ll have you down there, and we’ll come down. And once I get through the gate and get on the boat, nobody can bother. Nobody hears them, nobody you never heard any conversations or any bills came out of that boat. But a lot did, and we had a lot of good friendships came out that boat.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You think that’s going to be possible in this environment?
SEN. MANCHIN: I’m trying. I’m trying.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That it’s not too toxic for Democrats to work with Donald Trump?
SEN. MANCHIN: It’s never too toxic for people to get together and enjoy a little vibration, vibration and vibration. (laughing) Enjoy, enjoy getting together. And I tell you this on the boat, the most beautiful thing we do, no matter what we do that night, we have, we have some- some- some refreshments. We have some food. But before we leave, we always put Lee Greenwood on, “Proud to be an American,” and we all stand up and hug each other, I can tell you that. So if I can keep that alive, I’ve done something.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Manchin, thank you for your time.
SEN. MANCHIN: Thanks, Margaret, appreciate it.
